Finding Grace and Joy in Dementia Care: Insights from “No Country for Old People” With Susie Singer Carter
Are you looking for ways to bring more joy and less stress to your caregiving journey?
Susie Singer Carter is most proud of producing and directing her documentary, “No Country for Old People”, a nursing home expose. She is also proud of two short docs, “WOMEN WHO WROTE THE WAY” and “BREAKING GOOD” for the WGA’s Women’s History Month in 2017 and 2018.
The inspirational films honor trailblazing female writers – from Phyllis Nagy to Tina Fey – who have been responsible for cracking the glass ceiling and newer female writers who have followed their lead. Both screened at the WGA.
Caring for a loved one with dementia can feel overwhelming. Yet, as highlighted this episode featuring insights from the documentary “No Country for Old People,” there are ways to find grace, joy, and better understanding in this challenging journey.
This episode offers a fresh perspective on dementia care, focusing on aspects often overlooked by traditional advice.
Understanding Dementia Beyond Stereotypes
Many people hold stereotypical views of dementia, often seeing it as a condition that strips away a person’s identity. However, this documentary reveals a different narrative. It shows that individuals with dementia retain their emotional intelligence and can still form meaningful connections.
The Power of Emotional Memory
One of the key takeaways from the podcast is the importance of emotional memory. Even when cognitive functions decline, emotional memories persist. This means your loved one might not remember your name, but they will remember how you make them feel. This insight encourages caregivers to focus on creating positive, loving interactions.
Overcoming Embarrassment and Stigma
Caregivers often struggle with feelings of embarrassment when their loved ones act out of character. The podcast stresses that these behaviors are more about our own discomfort than theirs. Accepting this can help caregivers provide better support and reduce their stress.
The Role of the Healthcare System
The documentary sheds light on systemic issues in nursing home care, emphasizing the need for vigilance and advocacy from caregivers. It reveals how underfunding and neglect can severely impact the well-being of dementia patients. Caregivers are encouraged to be proactive and assertive in ensuring their loved ones receive the care they deserve.
Practical Tips for Caregivers
Routine and Consistency:
Introduce yourself each time you meet your loved one to reduce their confusion and anxiety.
Embrace Humor:
Use humor to cope with difficult situations. It can lighten the mood and create joyful moments.
Advocate Relentlessly:
Never assume that your loved one is getting the best care just because they are in a reputable facility. Visit at unpredictable times and ask questions.
Focus on Emotional Well-being:
Engage in activities that your loved one enjoys. Music, art, and simple conversations can be very therapeutic.
Stay Educated and Informed:
Understanding the disease and knowing what to expect can help you manage your caregiving responsibilities more effectively.
Building a Supportive Community
The episode emphasizes the importance of building a supportive community. Whether through support groups, family, or friends, having a network can provide much-needed emotional and practical support.
Conclusion
The insights from “No Country for Old People” offer a valuable perspective for caregivers of loved ones with dementia. By focusing on emotional connections, advocating for better care, and embracing humor and support, caregivers can navigate this journey with grace and find moments of joy amidst the challenges.
Remember, you are not alone in this journey. There are resources and communities out there ready to support you. Together, we can make a difference in the lives of those we care for.
Join Our Support Group
If you need more help and support, consider joining our monthly meetup. It’s a safe space to ask questions, share experiences, and receive guidance. You’re not alone in this journey.
Let’s support each other.
Read More:
Talking About Caregiver Burnout With Michelle Gordon
Check the other podcast: https://dignicarebydesign.com/category/podcast/
Email me: lizette@dignicarebydesign.com
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Listen to the Podcast
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[0:01] In today’s episode of Christian Dementia Caregiving, we have a very special treat. I had the privilege of interviewing Susie Singer-Carter for this episode 147, where we are going to talk about the documentary or docu-series that Susie is putting together. It’s in the post-production phase called No Country for Old People. It is a true story related to her experiences in her mom with her mother’s Alzheimer’s disease, as well as how they navigated the nursing home industry. And she is highlighting some of the things that have been brought to light related to nursing home care for our old people. So the movie or the docu-series is called No Country for Old People, and it’ll be released later this year. But welcome to Christian Dementia Caregiving, where it is the podcast for Bible-believing Christians who are wanting to make their caregiving journey easier.
[1:25] Where we are going to use your God-given talents and strengths to make it easier and give you hope as well as help in this journey so that you can create good memories and moments of joy.
[1:45] So without further Without further ado, let us join my conversation with Susie Singer-Carter and No Country for Old People.
Getting to Know Susie Singer Carter
[2:01] Well, I am very excited today with my guest, who is a little intimidating for me because it’s my first Hollywood person that I’m interviewing. And I’m so excited about that. We have Susie Singer Carter here. She is a filmmaker and a actress and a producer, and she has done an awesome job of a new documentary, which we’re going to talk about today. So Susie, why don’t you tell everybody just a little bit about yourself and then we’ll get into the documentary. Sure. Thank you. Thank you for having me. We had such a great conversation, my South African friend, because I’ve been to where you’re from. So I felt very kismet to you, which is Pretoria in case you’re listening. So which is a great smack. Isn’t it the capital? It is the capital. It is the capital of South Africa. Most people do not know that.
[3:02] Right, right. I like to brag about that. There’s a few things I like, makes me look fancy. See so um yeah i’m a filmmaker and i started off you know i as a actress but then i went into writing and developing projects for television and film and you know did most i started with children’s programming on cbs and i went and did a you know a transition into feature films with the feature film Bratz, which was a live action feature film with really, really fun to do. So weird because John Voight played our, the principal of the high school was like, what? That’s so bizarre. I know, right? Yeah. Right. But it was very, very fun. And then from a couple other different projects here and, you know, got to go over everything, but just the highlights was Soul Surfer for Sony. Co-wrote and then um also co-produced so that was about the awesome athlete bethany hamilton who lost her arm uh surfing by from a shark but went on to become an you know an incredible champion anyway so really great story of resilience and i was very proud of that project um around that time my mom was diagnosed with Alzheimer’s and.
[4:26] And I’ll also around that time of soul surfer, I was going through a really bad divorce. So a lot of changes in my life. And I really didn’t know a thing about Alzheimer’s at all. And I think like most people, I had every, you know, stereotyped idea of what it was and, you know, but.
[4:50] The fact that it was happening to one of my most favorite people in the world, my mom, I was making it my business to figure it out because it was scary to all of us, you know, and especially me because my mom was very slowly changing because hers was a very long journey. It was 16 years. And so I made every mistake in the book. I did everything wrong. and and then I figured out pretty much how to do things better and now I can look back and say towards the end I did things very well and so and I learned that on the backs of many other people sure now you you mentioned something really interesting that I really want to ask you about when you said the stereotypical idea of Alzheimer’s because I come from a professional background, so I have way too much baggage in my head to know what other people who have never been around it see as the stereotypical when you hear Alzheimer’s, what that means. Right. I think, you know, I experienced it from the family and friends was it was an instant sort of a perception that they are not a whole person.
[6:10] They are no longer, they are no longer a whole person. They no longer require the kind of respect and attention that someone who has a hundred percent of their cognitive abilities would. For instance, my brother would say, well, I, I, you know, what’s the point of calling or what’s the point of visiting? Cause she’s not going to remember. Right. And so you think, and that was, that was always his perception. Perception and I just couldn’t really buy into that. Although I watched my mom very closely to see like what could she remember? Parts of her was she losing and then what parts was she still retaining? I do think that when it first happened and my mom was no longer this pistol, this woman who could walk into any room and own it. And suddenly she still had a lot of that, but then And there was things that she did that were out of character. And if she was looking at herself, might go, what?
[7:09] Like, I’m embarrassed, right? Because that would not be her normal behavior. And that to me was like, in the beginning, it was like, oh, I wanted to shield her from embarrassment. Like, I would keep people from seeing her at a bad time if she was agitated, whatever. whatever, I would, I felt like that was, that might be embarrassing for her. And then when I figured out is it actually embarrassing to me, not her, because she was going, this was her reality. So every, every part of this disease was her reality. And it was, and so she just had to be there. That’s where she was living. So I had to try to figure out, um, not to, not to, not that I was being judgmental, but I would, I didn’t have the perception that a people would accept her and have grace and give her the grace, um, and would treat her, you know.
[8:09] You know, to, at the cognitive level that she was wherever it was that they might not have the patients. Cause I saw that. I saw that in doctors who lost patients, right. You know, who would like just completely disregard my mom when she was very, very vital early on and only talk to me as if she wasn’t in the room, which is so disturbing for someone who’s there and going, hello, I’m here, right? I’m still here. I’m still here. Yeah. And so, and those kinds of behaviors, I know they exasperate the disease because you don’t feel acknowledged and you don’t feel.
[8:48] That you have a purpose or that you’re, you, you know, even exist, what’s your point? You know, it’s like you, you, you start to get smaller and smaller and smaller. So I think when you, so let me, I’m getting, I’ll get back to the stereotype is that I just thought initially, cause I only met a couple of people, friends of my mom’s, like friends of my mother’s, their parents who might’ve had it at a party and the repetitive thing like, hi, what’s your name? and I’d say, Susie. Oh, that’s a beautiful. I had a friend. And then, you know, five minutes later, what’s your name? Susie. Yeah, exactly. And, you know, so for me, I just thought, I thought it was a disease of the very old. I thought that you just sort of were very nice to them, but you, but they really weren’t totally like, you couldn’t really communicate with them. I didn’t know anything about it. I just thought be kind, but they’re kind of not here. Okay. cool. Learning with my mom, I realized very quickly, no, she was here and always was to the very end. Yeah, for sure. So I have a follow-up question on that related to what you said about you wanted to shield your mom from being embarrassed and then recognized later on that it was really more you were shielding yourself from being embarrassed.
[10:09] One of my biggest platforms is to truly work on changing the narrative around dementia per se from this whole doom and gloom and woe is me tragedy narrative. What I believe and what I notice is there remains this tremendous stigma related to dementia. Do you think that That it’s coming from more the family in what you said, oh, I’m embarrassed related to knowing that someone I love is not acting the way they always would have. Or do you feel it’s coming from like the healthcare system in the whole, well, there’s nothing we can do, so we’re not going to do anything kind of narrative. Or from the person themselves who may be hiding it because they’re embarrassed. Have you ever thought about that? All of above. All of the above. You know, I think I did a film recently.
[11:14] Halfway through my mom’s progression when she lived with me for a year called my mom and the girl. And I really portrayed a lot of what you’re talking about, you know, because my mom that year, I call it the best and worst year of my life because it was really hard because she was straddling both sides of her disease. She knew she had the disease. She was fighting it, you know, tooth and nail. And it was really hard for her because at times she, she would forget she had it. And then other times she would go, you got to lock me up, you know? And, and, and, you know, we, we dealt with everything with humor. Mom, you know, as, as, as sturdy as she was, she would feel so bad later when she’d think back and go, when I’d say, mommy, that, you know, when you say that, Because my daughter was only 16 at the time and she would say, oh, I see you’re here with your friends. I’ll go. I’m not welcome. And I’d say, mommy, this is your granddaughter. And she’d go, right. And then later, of course, she remembered because the disease sometimes, you know, that’s part of the disease. And, oh, she would be devastated. She’d go, what is wrong with me? And I’d tell her, you have Alzheimer’s and it’s okay.
[12:32] That’s part of it, mom. It’s like having a head injury. That’s part of it. And we’re going to learn to live with it. We’re going to figure it out the best we can. I do think some family members and friends, the community might not have the patience.
[12:50] Or it’s too painful for them or it’s embarrassing to them too, whatever, you know, which is why I made the movie because I wanted to show that no matter, even though my mom was losing a lot of her rational thinking, her emotional thinking was intact and very powerful. And she connected with people, strangers all the time. And with whatever she had, whatever was her resources, she used them and learned to use them all the way to the end. So I found that fascinating and I found that so comforting to me to know that, you know, to lean into it, to use that trope. But I did lean into it. And that changed everything for me, for my family, for my daughters, who we all stay very close with my mom, for all of us, for us, of course, but we all stayed close with my mom. And I know this happens a lot with people with dementia is that a lot of the inner circle slowly drift away.
[14:03] They slowly drift away. way. And what’s really sad is I remember my mom had to move to assisted living and one of my stepsister who hadn’t visited my mom at all when my mom’s husband died, this was a couple of years later. And she said, I would love to bring Georgie, my stepdad’s cousin to visit your mom. And I said, that would be hard on her because she’s not going to remember that woman because Because now it’s been too long. Had she stayed in her life, she would have remained, whether she knew her name or not, she would have remembered here and here. But I said, now that would just be disturbing and frustrating for her.
[14:47] Right. Because, you know, listen, when when I can’t think of a word, it’s so frustrating. Right. When you can’t think of something that is so frustrating and what is happening all the time, it’s very it’s very disturbing. And I think, you know, I think that’s the hardest part.
[15:05] For the person with with Alzheimer’s or dementia. When you can’t think of something and, you know, it’s got to, you know, do you agree? The tongue feeling that we’ve all had before. Yeah, for sure. And you’re just like, and it’s panicky. It’s a little bit panicky.
Changing Perceptions of Alzheimer’s Disease
[15:25] And especially when you know, you should know something. That’s why I, you know, I’m skipping a little bit around, but that’s why I love, you know, you and I talked about this model of, of, you know, looking at dementia from, from Judy Cornish, you know, from the Dawn, from Dawn Institute. And I love the fact that she said, make it easy on them so they don’t have to think about it. So every time I’d walk into my mom’s room, I’d say, hi, mommy, it’s me, Susie, your daughter. I’m here. So she didn’t have to think about it. She didn’t have to put two and two together. She didn’t have to do anything. And she knew. Now she knows who I am, what’s my name, what’s our relationship. Right, exactly. I love what you mentioned about, you know, as the rational goes, the emotional remains. And that’s something I work very hard with my clients on understanding. It really is that intuitive part of us that remain. And so many people understand.
[16:25] Tell you or believe that that person is not going to remember you. And I disagree. That person does remember you, but they remember you not in dates, times, things that occurred.
[16:43] But how your relationship was and how you made them feel, whether they’re safe or not. And that that is the more i do this the more i’m like i truly believe and recognize them i love judy like judy cornish’s book dementia with dignity is probably one of my favorite books on dementia my least favorite and i’m gonna get in trouble for saying this out loud is the 36 hour day i don’t want anybody to ever read it i think it’s a it’s a very depressing horrible book and And all it does is perpetuate this narrative. And I read the book after I had 20 plus years of professional experience, and I thought it was a terrible book, right? But Judy does a very good job of reframing it related to that intuitive emotional experience that people have. And the longer I do this, you know, my other big soapbox is the whole quote unquote challenging behaviors that get slapped on people. The you’re agitated or this or that or whatever. I’m really more and more every single year concluding that we, the people around them.
[18:11] Actually cause those behaviors. We precipitate it through ignorance, you know, related to things like, well, mom, I told you, you’ve told me that story 10 times already. What do you mean you don’t remember?
Addressing Stigma and Challenging Behaviors
[18:28] Or, but mom, you’ve just, we’ve just gone over that. We’ve talked about it. All of All of those kinds of things that we say because we’re not clued in at the beginning causes the anxiety and the fear and breaks that relationship that you have with that person that results in later on them not trusting you, not wanting you to help them because you’ve had this adversarial relationship in just figuring out how to help them. Out what the hay is going on. Right.
[19:09] I really love that you brought out that intuitive, go for the emotions. Don’t go for the reason. Go for the emotions. Who cares if the person tells you 116 times what’s your name? Yeah. My name’s Susie. My name’s Lizette. I’m your daughter. Right? Do it over and over and over cheerfully, and they won’t freak out. Right. They won’t get anxious. That’s right. And I maintain that they will, if you are consistent, those are memories that don’t leave. Like you said, you know, when my stepdad died and I moved my mom with me because she was having Groundhog’s Day. Where’s Georgie? Mommy, he died. What? Nobody told me?
[19:56] I didn’t go to, when was the funeral? And I’d go, mama, you went to the funeral. And my brother, the day that he died, he goes, why do you tell her that he died? Just let her, just lie to her. Just say, and I said, no, this is too important. This is too, this was her best friend. And so when she came, so she had just moved in with me and I had the memorial, you know, the little pamphlet. And every time she’d say to me, where’s Georgie? And I’d say, mom, you know what? He passed away, but you went to the funeral. And it was beautiful, da-da-da-da-da. It only took me a week and a half at most. And the last time she asked about him, she said, where’s Georgie? And I said, where is he, Mom? And she said, where?
Providing Closure and Emotional Support
[20:43] He died. And I said, that’s right. And that was it. She never asked about him again. I thought it was so important for her to get it. You know, and I think, and she knew it was important for her to get it. And also it was, it was, it was consoling to have closure. Right. Yeah. Now, I think that for some people that doesn’t always happen. Right. And in that case, I always tell my clients and people that I work with, ask the person where they think they are. Yes. Well, that’s what I did is what I said, Mommy, where is he? Yeah. But she then knew. But if the person says, well, I think they’re at work, you don’t have to flat out lie. You just go to them. You have to be right. Yeah, exactly. No, agreed with you. I mean, listen, if it, if, if it didn’t work, if I, if my, you know, if my hypothesis was wrong, I would have stopped and I would have said, you know, he’s at the store picking something up. Okay.
[21:52] Done and done. But you tried, you know, and, and some people are too afraid to try, uh, you know, and I also think it depends on the, the, the frequency. Like it doesn’t sound like Like your mom asked every like five minutes, you know, she, she asked intermittently, but if somebody is asking every five minutes and they’re reliving it, we may have to try something different. But I, I just, I love your story about that because we’ve, we, the people around them.
[22:26] Do not know what they can and cannot remember. Because up to a certain point in this process, people can actually learn information that is highly valuable to them. Yes. And that is why your mom learned that Georgie had passed away, because it was important to her too. Very important. And I knew it was because she kept saying, because he was 12 years older than her, what am I going to do he’s my if he dies when he dies I’m going to be he’s my best friend he’s my best friend what am I going to do she was so stressing about losing him and I knew that I knew it was important for her to have the closure and to know that she was safe and that she was living with me you know and I I just really was hoping I mean that was it was like those little miracles that happen, right? Yeah, for sure. And my movie is very much about intuitive, intuitive and emotional, you know, capacity. And, and, you know, cause it was, it’s really a lovely story about my mom meeting a stranger on the street. I won’t tell you the whole story cause I hope everybody will listen to it. Watch it because it’s a, it’s a short film. She meets this transgender woman on the street, 10 o’clock at night. And they have a conversation that you would, in a million years, I mean, it wrote itself because I couldn’t have wrote this.
[23:53] And my mom, this woman ends up crying and telling my mom, like, she has no one to love her. And my mom kicks in mommy. Mommy kicks in and she’s, my mom was five foot tall and this woman was six foot whatever. And she’s like, now you stop that right now.
[24:11] I, yes, you have someone who loves you. I love you. And if anyone else doesn’t, it’s because they’re stupid or jealous or both, you know? And it was like, and that, and the, and my mom, the mama kicked in and all she saw was a beautiful woman. Right. And then she said, well, she goes, I I’m a tranny. And my mom goes, who gives it? Who gives this? I got a big fanny.
[24:37] So she didn’t care basically so what she’s saying is like you’re gorgeous who cares that’s all i see is a gorgeous woman yep for sure and it was beautiful so they both and they both helped each other for that moment oh for sure there was a connection a person-to-person connection so you did that movie and now you’ve done this documentary right we just finished
Transition to Documentary Post-Production
[25:03] a post -production on it. And so we’re, we are working on distribution now, so it’s not even out yet. I know, I’m excited about that. So yeah, so to transition to that conversation. So, you know, my mom and the girl was really, I called it a joyous look at Alzheimer’s and dementia and, and caregiving and, and not in a, in that toxic, like people say that toxic positivity or not at all. Like I showed both sides, but I really showed that, you know, But isn’t that in everything in life has both sides. So. Fair enough. Right. You know. Okay. Like nothing’s easy. Marriage isn’t easy. Raising children isn’t. Nothing’s easy. Getting out of bed some days isn’t easy. Right. So. So why should that be any different? Right. But. So. So.
[25:53] So two years ago, when COVID was happening all over the world, and my mom was in assisted living at this point. And the last six months of her life was just a journey from the underworld. I never imagined in my life that people could be treated like this. My mom had a five-star facility here in Los Angeles, very respected, been around for a very long time.
[26:22] It’s very well known in our community. And I was dumbfounded. I was like, what is going on? My mom was literally every hallmark of neglect that could happen was happening to my mom. And because of COVID and the protocols, families were kept away. So a lot of things happened because of this systemic issue that we have in our, you know, in our country, in America and all over the world. But, you know, in America, it is egregious and it’s criminal and it’s corrupt. The system is corrupt and it’s based on, you know, a lot of corporate greed
Uncovering Systemic Issues in Nursing Homes
[27:06] that’s taken over the industry. History and there’s many reasons why it is allowed to go on politically, but, but I’m also interested in the fact that it goes on under our noses, under the public, the, yes.
[27:25] The fact that we don’t look at it, it’s not, it’s not even on our purview because there’s so much ageism and ableism going back to, you know, Alzheimer’s and dementia within our society, within just the public, you know, like we were talking about before. So that ableism is still there. And then what was shocking to me was that it’s really prevalent in the healthcare system. You know, people with Alzheimer’s and dementia are so often dismissed. They’re voiceless people. And it’s easy to just, you know, write them off as being not worthy, not worthwhile. And so they become a victim to this kind of corporate greed that goes on because they just become an opportunity to build.
[28:18] Or if they become too much of a burden financially, then they’re really not going to be taken care of because there’s no reason to take care of them because they’re a drain on the economics. And I had no idea of this. I grew up always thinking like, you know, well, things are as people present them. Nursing homes are empathetic and, and they’re caring and they, they go by, you know, they go by the rules and, you know, we, we pay into this. So then when we get older, we’re supposed to be taken care of. And these people are professional. And, you know, I, I just naive about all of that stuff. And I feel, and I had, I had to think about it, you know, So, well, here I am, this very hands-on caregiver for my mom, and I am completely unaware of this systemic crisis. Well, if I didn’t know it, how many other people don’t know it? And lo and behold, most people don’t. No, most people do not. Absolutely. So what I also find very interesting is, based on our conversation, I know how active you were in her nursing home. And going and seeing and advocating for her. So I just, I wouldn’t, you know, what I always, what always scares me is what about those people who don’t have a Susie?
[29:45] I, that’s one of the first things I say in the documentaries. Like what, you know, here I was and I really did not have any agency at all. I got lip service 24-7. You know, can my mom have a wound doctor? We’ll look into it. Okay, well, it’s been now like seven weeks. What’s going on? You know, I’m very, you know, or can my mom, you know, why is my mom have a Foley catheter for seven weeks? Why does she need that? She does. That’s dangerous. You know?
[30:16] No, it’s fine. It’s fine. Don’t worry about it. It’s, you know, it’s, we, it’s, it’s not, it’s part, you know, it’s fine. Don’t worry about that. You know, it was just dismissal. And my mom was in pain and, you know, I won’t go into all the, all the things that happened to her because it was I mean honestly yeah sorry it was I mean honestly it was like I was when I would tell my friends and family you know I really felt like they’re gonna think I’m crazy I’m unhinged because they’re how could all this be happening at this place at this five-star place right so I’m you know related to that this five-star place here locally in South Carolina, where I live, for a very brief period of time, I was a therapy manager in a skilled nursing facility, a CCRC, a continuing care retirement community.
Experiences in Different Nursing Home Facilities
[31:13] And thankfully, I recognized I am not well suited to management. I have too much of a mouth. Yes. Thank God.
[31:24] Leadership, yes. Management, no. But I remember walking through the facility and telling my husband it was one of those facilities in town, right? It had the name, everybody. And I walked down the hall, not supposed to have her cell phone, but I’m like, I have never, The most beautiful building.
[31:52] Right. Beautiful aesthetics. Very expensive. Right. I have never been in as bad a nursing home in my entire life. I’m like, I cannot believe the substandard care people were getting there. And then the flip side, I’ve been in the worst buildings. Think Florida cinder block painted buildings that were in a very small tight-knit community that the care was exceptional but you wouldn’t know it looking at the building right right right right taking care of extremely well so there are those two extremes but there are and there are some you know and I want to I want thank you for bringing that up because there are obviously there are some places that have, you know, despite the, the, the system, which is really hard to fight against because the good, the good facilities that want to do a good job.
[32:55] Depending on what is their business model, if they’re for-profit, if they’re non-profit, if they’re owned by real estate or private equity,
Struggles of Good Facilities in the System
[33:09] working against that and wanting to do the right thing is so difficult. But yet there are places that will do it because their community within that facility is stronger.
[33:23] But I’m telling you, it’s not fair to them, to those facilities that want to do a good job. Most people want to do a good job. That’s the thing. You know, nobody goes into nursing or, you know, health care for the most part, you know, unless or CNAs, unless they really want to do this. This is what they care about. But when you can’t do your job, when you’re understaffed and overworked and underpaid and not getting benefits and you’re being given, you know, twice as much workload that any one person should ever give, you know, you can’t do your job. You can’t. You cannot do it. And you’re going to go home at night and you’re going to feel awful. You’re going to have what’s called moral injury. And you are going to either try to compartmentalize, which means shut off your emotions, which is what we see often. And that’s why we see people that are just going through the motions because
Impact of Understaffing on Caregivers
[34:24] they’re trying to protect themselves or they just leave the industry. There’s an excess of that. And that leaves us with people doing this job, these jobs as a side hustle.
[34:37] And that’s the last thing you want in elder care or in vulnerable care is someone doing a side hustle. Yeah, for sure. I remember when you and I were talking before, you know, before we started recording that we talked about the fact that you could get a job in a convenience store or a Chick-fil-A or a Burger King or whatever and actually be paid more money than taking care of our most vulnerable adults. Yep. And, you know, why would you, why would, why would anybody do that if you could go get a job somewhere else where you don’t have to work as hard? You’re not bitten or, you know, hit or other things. It’s hard work. It’s heavy. If someone is immobile and you have to turn them and, you know, and patience and all that stuff, it’s a lot. Bathing, it’s a lot. I mean, they’re saints. You guys, you know, the frontline workers are saints. They are. Absolutely.
[35:44] Do you feel alone and isolated and need a little bit more help and support in this journey? Sign up for our next Ask the Dementor monthly meetup where we will come together. Less than 10 people are allowed to sign up at a time so we can have fellowship where we can answer questions, where you can get some Christian guidance and just an awareness us that you are not alone on this journey. I really want you to be able to connect with me. I want to be able to answer your specific questions. So if you’re struggling, if you’re tired, if you’re overwhelmed, if you’re stressed, if you just need a little bit of help, sign up for the next Ask the Dementor monthly meetup. The link is in the show notes below.
Documentary Purpose
[36:46] So tell us a little bit more about the purpose behind the documentary right so you know my just I’ll just want to say briefly my mom you know Adam I just got so she ended up going into the hospital like 36 hours after I’d finally gotten to see her and um she was admitted with a stage four pressure wound I didn’t even know really what a pressure wound was let alone how severe a stage four is. And, you know, one thing that we, one of the, one of the many things we talk about in the documentary are these never events that the Center for Medicare and Medicaid will tell you. One of them, number one is bed sores, because that is the hallmark of neglect. So are UTIs and, you know, these are things that should never happen. And yet, if you talk to the administrators that are, you know, not the good ones, they’ll tell you, Oh, that’s normal. This is what happens. We try, but we can’t avoid it. No, that is wrong.
[37:46] There are ways to avoid that, and they have to be avoided. And we know this. We know this for a fact. And those kinds of issues, bed sores, cause they are the root of the end. They are the beginning of the end if you don’t take care of them. And that’s what happened to my mom. So what I want, you know, this, my partner, Rick Moncastle, who if you haven’t seen Dope Sick on Hulu, you should. It’s about the two prosecutors who went after Purdue Pharma for off-marketing and OxyContin and really getting it disseminated as a street drug and many people dying from it and then making billions and billions of dollars. Well, Rick Moncastle was a former U.S. attorney who federally prosecuted them and won the case. I won’t tell you all about it. Go watch. I’m going to go watch it for sure. Watch it. But he is an incredible human being. He also, his next case after that was Abbott Labs, who off-marketed Depakote to nursing homes, which my mom was a victim of, Depakote. That’s that chemical tethering that they do often to keep people calm and like so they don’t have to do anything. They’re basically sleeping. Right. The other word for chemical tethering is a chemical restraint. There you go. Thank you.
[39:14] Right. And, and that is what it is. And that’s all, you know, and, um, I didn’t know it until her GP told me, I thought her, this, this was eight years before she passed. She was walking tough, you know, just lively as could be. And suddenly she’s immobile. She’s in a wheelchair. She’s incontinent and, and a zombie. And her GP told me that she was on this drug Depakote and and elderly, which means it causes death. It can cause death. So, you know, so Rick had gone after Abbott Labs and also prosecuted them for $1.5 billion that was what they ended up with. Still they’re in business. Isn’t that amazing? Yeah. Well, I mean, that’s just the way it goes. And then he also prosecuted nursing homes for fraud and abuse and neglect federally for 20 years. And so he was just, when I got to meet him, long story short, I hunted him down. I said, you’ve got to come on my podcast and talk about DepoCode and all those kinds of things. And then And I was going through all this problem with my mom in 2022, two years ago. And he was just retiring.
[40:36] And he was, you know, kind of a little bit famous from dope sick. He was being on all the big talk shows. You know, they were interviewing him. And he was on MSNBC and CNN and da, da, da. And he was the first person to tell me, this is not your mom’s, just your mom’s facility. This is a systemic crisis. And I’ve seen it. I prosecuted them for 20 years, and all these one-offs that I won, there’s no change. It’s been that way for a very long time. Now that I’ve done this documentary, I can tell you, you know, that it has been around for, you know, documented for at least 60 years, and if not more. People that I know that are, you know, of age who have been advocating forever will say it was way before that. But, you know, it’s been going on for a very long time. And that’s why, you know, traditional advocacy hasn’t helped. It really hasn’t. It’s been at best performative because there’s a very strong nursing home lobby who is very, it is one of the top three lobbyists who are very strong, which is the pharmaceutical lobby.
[41:48] And, and, you know, our NRA, right? So we’ve got these incredibly deep pocketed lobbies who like to keep it status quo, because that’s how, you know, everybody, all the people that are making money off of it are very comfy cozy, and they like it just as it is. And the lobbies, they’ve inserted themselves in our legislature, they seats at the table, they make decisions on behalf of the elder community, and they’re making them not for them. They’re making them for the industry side. And I find it fascinating that you mentioned the top three lobbies, two are in healthcare. Yeah. Yeah. No wonder our healthcare system is as broken, isn’t it? It’s broken. And, you know, and I’m going to go back to ageism again, because, you know, elder care, people are like, well, they’re going to die anyway. Well, da-da-da-da-da-da. You know, and, you know, during COVID, when everybody was isolated, the first couple months, one of our experts, Mike Wasserman, who’s a geriatrician, who also was, you know, an executive CEO of one of the biggest chains here for nursing homes, he speaks, he’s one of the foremost speakers on reform now. I mean, he said there was, and there’s articles on it too, 200,000 elders died that wouldn’t have died otherwise.
[43:15] That’s more than any disaster that we can think of.
Isolation and Neglect during COVID
[43:20] And nobody is talking about it. I’ve thought about that a lot, specifically related to people in nursing homes with dementia and assisted living facilities during the period of COVID because of the absolute fear and fear mongering that was going on.
[43:45] And the isolation, the isolation. They couldn’t even feed themselves. Never, you know, nine out of ten times when you have that kind of level of impairment, you can’t open up a package of something to get enough food out of a plastic thing that you would get at a, you know, a fast food store. And their food was presented to them in white styrofoam plates with these things that were closed. They couldn’t see it. They might not know it’s there. They don’t even know it’s there. They’re not going to open it up. They’re not going to open up their, so I have thought about that a lot. Oh, it’s terrible. It was terrible. Even people that didn’t have Alzheimer’s who were cognitively healthy, wealthy who were just older and in their, maybe in their nineties, you know, and people that I knew from when visiting mom before COVID and having really lovely relationships with them, looking forward to seeing the cool group of, of the elders there. They were, they were literally the cool group. They would come and say, Susie’s singing, let’s go. And they’d come up and, you know, they, they were all, they all hung out together. They had dinner together every night And they all passed away during COVID from failure to thrive. Social. So lonely. Yeah, for sure. Heartbreaking.
Creating a Movement
[45:13] It’s heartbreaking. So your purpose for the movie is awareness? Awareness. It’s really awareness. And we want to create a movement, a really strong grassroots movement to really, you know, once we educate everybody, it’s like, you know, again, I’m going to be. I’m going to be very meta and say, you know, once you know, you know, when you know, you know, like, I want everyone to have that realization, like, okay, now, you know, it’s like my, my, you know, name. Yeah, thank you. Angela says, you know, it’s like, until you know, you don’t know. But when you know, you know, I’m bastardizing it, but you know. So now I want everyone to know. And then now we need to have this collective conscience to say, we have to do better. And we need to demand it as a public. Because these sort of echo chambers of coalitions and advocacy groups and all these things who really have their heart in the right place, don’t get me wrong, but we’re preaching to the choir for 50 years.
Grassroots Movement Vision
[46:27] So when we start this grassroots movement related to nursing home and nursing home reform, what do you envision that actually looking like?
[46:37] That’s a good question. Right now we’re talking to so many groups that are truly on the same page as we are and have been from all different parts of this system. Because I think that we need to all be together because it’s really at the end of the day, It’s just, it’s, it’s that upper tier that’s, that’s puppeted puppeteering everything. So that’s what, that’s where our focus needs to be. And then policy can fall into place after that. But, but that we need to expose that upper tier because that is really what is, what is controlling everything. So it, you know, to me, it looks like the Me Too movement. To me, it looks like, you know, Black Lives Matter, the LGBTQ.
[47:21] I mean, it really, you know, what we need to take it to the streets. Streets and virtually too, because a lot of caregivers can’t get to the streets. So we need to keep that in mind and be mindful of that.
Making Real Change
[47:32] But we need to make a lot of noise. We need to be very disruptive in a very good, nice way, you know, but I mean, we need to be, you know, it’s, I’m listening to Anthony Fauci’s book right now. And it’s like, you know, he was so, he really was, He was the man that brought the, not the cure, but the drugs that keep people alive with AIDS. And, you know, talk about stigma, you know, being, you know, and not getting the kind of money they needed. Well, this man is, he’s a saint.
[48:09] And, you know, and the advocates that he worked with, you know, I mean, he had strong, strong relationships with these really strong advocates who, you know, they worked hand in hand and they went to the streets. They had to go to the streets because you have to make a lot of noise. You have to let the politicians who are being paid for by lobbies, their campaigns are being funded by lobbyists. They need, the public needs to go, we know, we know what’s going on. We’re your constituents. constituents so stop it yeah let’s let’s let’s let’s get you know let’s do this let’s let’s make real change so you know it’s i saw i saw a post on linkedin this last week with this i’m an advocacy group that has um a lot of um college students and they were talking and the the head of it was said you know i just want to bring it to the attention i think it’s It’s very telling that during the debates that caregiving wasn’t brought up once.
[49:20] And I think Joe Biden started to, and I won’t get into all that, but let’s not forget that he started the Build Back Better plan, right? And that he’s had a lot of attention on caregiving. And we put this in the documentary. We talk a lot about this. We show videos of this, you know, where Mark Parkinson, who’s the head of the lobby, will say, yeah, Build Back Better, it sounds great, but, you know, we don’t have the money. Will, as billions of dollars are being siphoned out of, you know, the money that’s coming in from Medicare and Medicaid, right? And it’s not going and it’s not staying in the facilities. It’s being vacuumed out and tunneled into the pockets of these very wealthy people.
[50:07] And so to say that the nursing homes are underfunded is just a blatant lie. Oh, yeah, for sure. No, there’s a a lot of money in nursing homes. I mean, bottom line, I don’t know in, I don’t know what your mom’s nursing home costs, but here in South Carolina, a, just a run of the mill, not the best is anywhere between six and $10,000 a month. Right. And then, yeah. And LA and, you know, and, and more, you know, way more. And then like my mom ended up on Medicaid because once you, have a long disease that lasts for 16 years, you’re going to run out of your money. So you’re going to end up on Medicaid. And that’s when the problems really start because now you’re at the mercy. And when they say that Medicaid doesn’t pay enough, yes, it does pay enough. And Medicare kicks in for the health issues because Medicaid just pays for your living expenses, right? So there is plenty of money. It’s $90,000 a year minimum.
[51:16] That’s plenty for somebody to live and have some help. Anywhere. Don’t you agree? Trust me, I could take that $90,000 and take care of somebody very well at home. Right. And that’s not even talking about the Medicare that kicks in with the medical expenses. Exactly. When they say that, oh, well, if we staffed up, you know, we can’t because we still have the money where we’ll go, we’ll go bankrupt. And what will happen to these people and the scare tactics that the lobby will feed the public is that, well, what What are we going to do with these people if we have to close this facility? You don’t have to close that facility. You have to stop funneling money out of there into your fancy homes and your private jets and on and on and on.
[51:59] Yeah, for sure. And that’s what’s going on. And that’s not, you know, it sounds like, you know, a bad movie. It sounds like a bad B movie. It’s absolutely what’s going on. Right. No, trust me, I absolutely have not a single doubt of it. I mean, you and I spoke earlier on about my very first experience as a therapist in the United States, but I have multiple, multiple stories. One of, and this was even in a, you know, I’m not going to talk about that particular story, but another one that as we were talking, you know, that came up today was, it was a good, it was a good nursing home. It is a good nursing home. I worked there for a long period of time. It’s not one of these big corporate ones that are just, the people really do care. But the medical staff that was coming in, so you’ll have your facility staff that do the day-to-day, the administrators, the nurses, et cetera. But you always have your medical staff coming in and doing the treatment. So there’s a medical director and he had a physician’s assistant. And I was working with a woman who had definitely some measure of cognitive impairment.
[53:19] This is 15 years ago. I don’t remember her details anymore. But she had fallen overnight, which happens frequently. And everybody is always concerned about the hip. Fall, you always get a hip x-ray. Make sure you didn’t break your hip. And I had been working with her for weeks. So I really knew her well and her behavior had changed.
[53:45] And I’m like, something’s wrong. Something’s wrong. You know, and I watched her for a couple of days and I would tell the nurse, there’s something wrong. There’s something wrong. She’s not the same. And they’re like, well, we did a hip x-ray. She’s fine. She’s fine. She’s fine. Finally, one day I walked down to the nurse’s station and the physician’s assistant was there and the medical director was sitting right next to him. And I am not a keep your mouth shut type of person. Never have been. I love it. And I walk up and I’m like, hey, something is really wrong with her. I’m like, I’m concerned about her wrist. You know, she fell. The hip x-rays were fine, but she is not using the hand. You know, it just built the whole picture. And the physician’s assistant, I kid you not, I’m standing right in front of the nurse’s station. And I’m not a small human, you know, I’m a big girl. I’m five, seven and I outweigh him.
[54:49] And I’m standing there and he turns and looks at the doctor and he’s like, well, she just thinks she knows everything, like legitimately in front of me. And I just kind of stood there for a second and I said to him, I’m like, well, my x-ray vision doesn’t work that well. Okay, good on you. And he’s like, no, no, no. They took a wrist x-ray. She had broken her wrist. But it took me not backing down to get that x-ray for a person who couldn’t speak for themselves anymore. more. Oh my God. Such a great story because I interviewed so many caregivers with similar stories like that. That’s in the documentary. You know, one woman had literally two breaks in her spine and she kept saying, my mother, please. They’re like, no, no, she’s just agitated. And she’s just, you know, we’re just going to give her, give her some, you know, whatever oxycodone or whatever the case, you know, all medicine. And finally, finally she found, she went to a another physician who wasn’t part of that nursing home system and said, can I just pay for an MRI? And.
[56:11] Two breaks in her spine. I mean, that’s torture. That’s called torture, folks. That’s torture. That is, you wouldn’t do that to an animal. I mean, that is, it’s so unconscionable. You know, it’s just egregious. It’s, it’s awful. It’s unthinkable. It’s unthinkable. Yeah, for sure. To my mom with the stage four and that keep, you know, and kept telling me after she gets out of of the hospital, like, well, she’s going to succumb to it. So we’ll just keep her medicated. I’m like, what are you talking about? She’s going to say, yeah, you would too. You would too, if we don’t take care of it. What’s wrong with you?
Frustration with Care Facilities
[56:50] And, you know, they don’t want to, you know, I find out now they don’t want to call a wound doctor because that’s going to alert, you know, CMS and Medicare that she has a wound. They don’t want to talk about that because that’s going to bring their star rating down. And they don’t want to talk about that. They don’t want to, you know, And the first thing they said to me when I called them when she was admitted into the hospital was, I said, how come you didn’t tell me my mom? Because, you know, stage four wounds don’t start in five minutes. No. They’re there for a while. Yeah, they’re there for a while. Why wouldn’t you tell me that? If she’s being taken care of and you saw that, why don’t you call me as her, you know, conservatorial person? And their answer was, it didn’t happen here. Of course it did. Right. But that’s what they told me. So apparently it happened. But it wasn’t documented there. No. No, they said it wasn’t, but I found that it was the month before. So it was there for a good month. It just makes me so mad. I’m so sorry your poor mom went through that. Thank you. Nobody deserves it. That is so painful. She ended up dying from it going all the way to her tailbone. You know, and that is, you don’t, you know, and it is so, unfortunately, such so much of the standard of care. You know, the good ones that you’re talking about are the outliers and that’s the sad part.
[58:09] That’s the sad part. And so that’s why, you know, it’s a matter of humanity at this point, because we’re talking about people are getting warehoused for money. For sure. Absolutely.
[58:23] In America, folks, in America. Oh, for sure. For sure. Absolutely true. I mean, it’s true. I’ve worked with people all over the country, all over the world that I’ve helped online, line that they’ve taken care of somebody at home all the way through this process where they’ve never gotten any type of wound, any type of, you know, those kinds of things. You can take care of a person with dementia without them developing a bed sore. Or even a UTI. I’ve spoken to many caregivers who have had the fortune, the good fortune to taking care of their loved one at home, which you can only do if it’s not too high of acuity, right? And because otherwise, Medicare doesn’t pay for home care, right? So to the extent that you need it. So it has to be within a facility. But I can’t think of one person that I’ve interviewed on my podcast, because it’s all about Alzheimer’s, that has a person at home that didn’t say, well, they didn’t get a UTI with me. They just didn’t. They didn’t. They didn’t get one. For sure.
Viewing the Documentary
[59:39] How do people eventually get to watch the movie? Yeah. I’m going to get to watch the movie later this month. Actually, I actually- You’re going to see a part of it. You’re going to see a sizzle. It’s called a sizzle. A part of it. Ooh, that’s even better. So this episode airs on the 22nd of July, and I believe your thing is on the 23rd. So I’m- Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, I’m glad you’re coming. Yeah. What you’re going to see is a sizzle, what we call a sizzle. And a sizzle is sort of like you know it’s it’s a very elongated trailer so it’s going to give you a lot of highlights of what this long it’s gonna you know this is going to be a three-hour project so it’s going to be in parts so really a docu-series broken you know so it’ll be broken into either two parts or three parts but um very comprehensive and not boring i trust me when i I say it’s not boring. Well, it can’t be boring because you’re not boring. Oh, thank you. But I mean, it really is going to open your eyes. You’re going to be like, whoa, whoa, what? Like you are going to go, this can’t be happening in America. And I’m here to tell you it is.
[1:00:47] So we are right now shopping this with streamers and distributors as we speak. And our goal is to get this out in full on available to everybody before the end of the year you know this is a big project we’ve i’ve worked on it with my team for the past two two years straight since my mom passed and um i’m just saying that most documentaries like of this of this size can take anywhere from you know five to ten years even so we we’ve worked so hard because our sense of urgency to get this out, we’re sick of it. And Rick, you know, Montcastle, basically, he’s really sick of it because he’s seen it so much and no change. And now that he’s not part of the government anymore, you know, he can be open.
[1:01:42] Yes, he can be so honest. And he is very honest and very, very authentic about, you know, his perspective, which is incredibly, comes from a very experienced person, someone who has been in the trenches, someone who knows both sides, knows the political side, as well as the public side, and can speak, extremely well on that. And all of our, everyone was vetted thoroughly, because we’re so lucky to to have an ex-federal prosecutor on the team. So with a heart like this big, you know. I marvel at him, I say, every time I go, I can’t believe you, you must have been tough as hell. But I don’t see it, I just see this really lovely heart.
[1:02:32] You know? So, um, so we got a great team. We really just want to educate and reform and change, make real change. So people don’t have to go through what you saw people go through a broken wrist that goes on, on, on notice or ignored rather. Or a stage four wound. Stage four wound. Or in the hospital in two days, right? Oh, not even two days on the way over. Oh yeah, for sure. On the way, honest to God, on the way over, they called me when she was admitted. It hadn’t been more than an hour and said, by the way, because they didn’t want responsibility for it, the hospital. No, no, for sure. No, the hospital documents it very well. They were like, we want you to know that your mom came in with a stage four pressure wound. And I said, what? What? And so then I called the facility and they said, oh, I don’t know. It didn’t happen here. So what happened in the 20 minute ride is- We’re not stupid. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Well, Susie, if people wanted to listen more or get to know you a little bit better, where do they go?
Stay Connected
[1:03:37] Yeah. Okay. There’s two places. So you can, I’m on social media everywhere. Susie Singer Carter, I’m sure it’ll be in your notes. And, um, but also, uh, you can go to no country for old people.com and there’s everything you can look at. Um, we’ve got short trailers, a minute and a half, medium sized trailers. You can, you can watch the sizzle that, you know, Lizette is telling you about. And then, and you can stay in contact with us. You can join our movement.
[1:04:06] There’s a, there’s a link there. If you want to be a part of it, which I highly, you know, recommend, I think it’s really important. We are still raising money for the final, you know, promotion and all the marketing that goes into it. So, and it’s all nonprofit. We have partnered up with the National Consumer Voice for Quality Long-Term Care, which has been around since 1975. So that tells you how long they’ve been trying to get quality care. And so they’ve given us a 501 status. So anything you donate.
[1:04:38] Which you can find the link either on their website or on No Country for Old People, is tax deductible and going to a very good cause. And also, I’m GoGirlMedia. That’s my company. It’s GoGirlMedia.com. You can find me there. And yeah, anybody have stories, please go to No Country for Old People. Tell me you have a story because we’re collecting stories too. And I want to, you know, have this so that people can’t say, well, these are the outliers. These are the one-offs. No. No. These are not the one-offs. Not at all. No. And so I just say to your listeners, if this has happened to you, my heart goes out to you. We have to change this. You know, come be a part of this movement and come because
Advocate for Loved Ones
[1:05:27] it’s going to take, it’s going to take a thousand villages. Right. And, yeah. And I need your help. I want to say one more thing just to people who may have no other alternative to long-term care placement. If you do have somebody in a long-term care facility, your job is their advocate.
[1:05:51] That is your job. And you cannot just assume that they’re going to be well, that they are well taken care of. A couple of good strategies that I always told my patients do not ever show up at the same time every day. Perfect. I love it. You’re so right. You’re so, she’s so right. Because if I promise you, they know when you’re going to show up. Oh, yeah. Come lunch every single day. Guess what? Mama’s going to be really well taken care of at lunch every single day. She’ll have blush on her hair. I’ll be brushed. Oh yeah. You have to come. You can have no pattern. Zero. And no system. You have to be random. Yep. I agree with you. And you just need to be the squeaky wheel and you. You have to be, and it doesn’t feel good. but I’ll tell you, like, I don’t like being the squeaky wheel, but, and it, cause it doesn’t feel good. You will become the enemy there. And, and that, and it’s so unfair that you do because you, all you’re doing is advocating for someone that you love and, you know, you’re making their life harder.
[1:07:06] Not your, not your loved one, but the staff. Right. And they resent it and I get it, but that’s your loved one so you know they got that’s why they’re they’re in business so and you’re paying money for them to be taken care of but the reality of the matter is you do have to be the squeaky wheel a hundred percent yeah and in hospitals too never see anybody in a hospital alone ever no no no no no no.
Hospital Advocacy Tips
[1:07:36] I agree. Right? Yep, absolutely. Well, Susie, thank you so much for being here. This was fun. Oh, good. I enjoyed talking to you so much. And I really thank you for this platform and for giving me an opportunity to share what we’re doing. And I really, really appreciate you. My heart absolutely goes out to anybody who is in that particular situation. Yeah. You don’t want to get there without that. Yeah. Don’t want to happen what happened to me. I’m telling you, it was a horrible, horrible experience. So let’s nip this in the bud. Let’s get these greedy people out of there and let’s get back to some, you know, dignity and respect and, you know, humanity. And taking care of the staff. And the staff. Oh, again, like I said, they’re, you know, we’ve already gone, but for sure, the staff doesn’t deserve this either. The staff deserves respect. Absolutely. And to do what their job is.
[1:08:40] Awesome. And to be paid for it. Oh, for sure. And be paid a wage that they can support themselves on. Right. Amen. Thank you so much. You know, this is right up my alley. So, Susie, thank you so very, very much. I thoroughly enjoyed it. And I cannot wait to watch the sizzler. Sizzle. Sizzle. And then the movie. You got it. I’m excited. All right. Well, I’ll see you at the screening. Yes, I’ll be there. Okay. Bye-bye. Bye.
